Poll: Should teaming be allowed in Pillars of Fortune

[Matriox]

Teaming in Pillars of Fortune
​

Possibly staff could scale this poll up on the forums or discord to see if the community would like teaming to be disallowed in POF?

Not here to ask for it to be disallowed or anything. I'm just interested in what the community thinks.

If you vote no or yes, do say why below. This topic hasn't really been discussed as of yet I don't think.

Following has been updated as the discussion went on....

Points made in the Thread/Discord
​

So far I have heard of the following reasons to why it should be disallowed:

- While it is often compared to Minerware, in POF teaming will much more likely get you a win than in Minerware. Sure, you can not kill someone in a microgame, but that certainly doesn't guarentee you enough points to win the Minerware game. Whereas in POF, it is much more likely you will win if you have a teammate. There's no way that you could guarantee a 100% victory rate by teaming in Minerware, whereas in POF you will be guaranteed the win the vast majority of the time.

- When compared to FFA: FFA has no win condition, therefore you can only team up to obtain kills, but you can't team up TOO much, because kill farming is a punishable offense.

- Stop win farming

- Stops games being stalled for a really long time

- Teaming takes away the fun for the rest of the lobby, as you either have to join them or guarantee to lose.



​

So far I have heard of the following reasons to why it should be allowed:

- It should be a game you can play with friends, it's casual

- This is not a game about being the last man standing, you're goal is not to take out other players but rather just to be still alive by the time the timer runs out (the only goal to the game is to not die). The only "opponent" in this game is death

- "I am with the allowed of teaming in the game bcs its help you a lot"



Allowing Teaming...
​

Benefits:	Disadvantages:
Fun for those in a party/friends	Not fun for those not in the party/being teamed on
It's a casual game, no need for a strict teaming rule	It almost guarantees a win for those teaming
"It helps you a lot"	Allows for win farming
Makes the game about staying alive rather than "last man standing"	Allows games to be stalled for a long amount of time
....	....

 

[Dualninja]

I didn't even know it was allowed till I reported 2 people for teaming. I really don't think it should be allowed.

 

[JokeKaedee]

I'd say disallow teaming. It has happened a few times now, and they were just stalling the games for ages.
Pushing other people's towers from both sides, and then chilling on the same platform together - keeping the game from finishing while other players were still alive.

Not only that, but it is almost a guaranteed win when you're teaming in this specific gamemode. I feel like it would (only) get used to farm wins and take out the fun part of the game that keeps it so chaotic and random?
There wouldn't be that much 'fortune' if the entire game is based on two or more players teaming up and taking you out together, imo.

 

[Frontlane]

I first read the question, thought about it, then read the replies. There are some fair points in these replies, though my first thought was that it should be allowed.

Imo, it's a casual game I wouldn't see as something for "tryhards", more like some fun game where players can play alone or with friends, and try their luck to see if they can make it out alive. Of course, there are players sweating on this gamemode, but I'm convinced the need for skill gets somewhat limited due to the nature of this game. I'm convinced it's a game you should be able to play with friends, and I also don't really see a separate team mode fitting for this game type.

I do understand Joke's above point about players trolling/stalling, so maybe some camping/trolling rule should be put in place for players stalling games, or, they could just remove the feature of letting everyone win when the timer ends and find a different way to make games end, like they did for BedWars with the decaying maps.

 

[cubelegit7621]

Or they could just yk make a duos mode?

 

[adrian525pl]

I am gonna be a bit controversial here and say that I see no reason to disallow teaming in this mode.



You see: Pillars of fortune is different to other games. In the sense that to "win", you do not have to kill everyone or be the last one remaining, you have to survive until the time runs out. Meaning that fighting and killing in this mode is entirely optional, as the goal is to just survive.

and they were just stalling the games for ages.
Pushing other people's towers from both sides, and then chilling on the same platform together - keeping the game from finishing while other players were still alive.

And the game even encourages that by rewarding you XP NOT based on kills, but based on the length of the game, with the maximum being 60 XP if you can make it till the timer runs out. You are also not rewarded any extra XP for being the last one remaining if that scenario ever occurs, quite the opposite as you'll most likely be rewarded less than those 60 XP if the game ends before the time runs out.


How is that a reason not to disallow teaming? Simple: It is not a gamemode based on the principle of "there can only be one". It isn't a mode based on "everyone vs everyone", where everyone is supposed to be your opponent. Its a mode based on the principle of "just don't die".


What that means is that other players aren't your opposition, they just exist, you or they choose to become your/their opposition if you threaten their survival or if they threaten yours.

The only "opponent" in this game is death, not the other players.

Technically everyone is on the same team of "don't die", unlike other modes, like eggwars, where you are assigned a specific team/color with the explicit goal of being the last one alive.

Because of this whole "killing isn't required" thing, it functions very much like FFA in battle arena where you aren't actually required to do anything with there being very little rules, you do whatever you feel like. There are (at least for now) not meant to be any rules besides the obvious "don't use cheats" and other stuff like that.

so maybe some camping/trolling rule should be put in place for players stalling games

This also makes it so that "stalling", "camping", "trolling" aren't a thing here, because you are allowed to do whatever you feel like, the only goal of the game is not to die. If the entire lobby feels like it, EVERYONE can be a winner.

Especially stalling, you can't really "stall" a game designed to end at a specific point via a timer. If there was no timer, and you were required to be the last one remaining, only then is it "stalling" to play for time.

 

[Matriox]

they could just remove the feature of letting everyone win when the timer ends and find a different way to make games end, like they did for BedWars with the decaying maps.

That's certainly a good point, would love to see if people would have more suggestions as to what this could be as at the moment the current system is being abused by a small number of people.

I am gonna be a bit controversial here and say that I see no reason to disallow teaming in this mode.



You see: Pillars of fortune is different to other games. In the sense that to "win", you do not have to kill everyone or be the last one remaining, you have to survive until the time runs out. Meaning that fighting and killing in this mode is entirely optional, as the goal is to just survive.




And the game even encourages that by rewarding you XP NOT based on kills, but based on the length of the game, with the maximum being 60 XP if you can make it till the timer runs out. You are also not rewarded any extra XP for being the last one remaining if that scenario ever occurs, quite the opposite as you'll most likely be rewarded less than those 60 XP if the game ends before the time runs out.


How is that a reason not to disallow teaming? Simple: It is not a gamemode based on the principle of "there can only be one". It isn't a mode based on "everyone vs everyone", where everyone is supposed to be your opponent. Its a mode based on the principle of "just don't die".


What that means is that other players aren't your opposition, they just exist, you or they choose to become your/their opposition if you threaten their survival or if they threaten yours.

The only "opponent" in this game is death, not the other players.

Technically everyone is on the same team of "don't die", unlike other modes, like eggwars, where you are assigned a specific team/color with the explicit goal of being the last one alive.

Because of this whole "killing isn't required" thing, it functions very much like FFA in battle arena where you aren't actually required to do anything with there being very little rules, you do whatever you feel like. There are (at least for now) not meant to be any rules besides the obvious "don't use cheats" and other stuff like that.




This also makes it so that "stalling", "camping", "trolling" aren't a thing here, because you are allowed to do whatever you f**king feel like, the only goal of the game is not to die. If the entire lobby feels like it, EVERYONE can be a winner.

Especially stalling, you can't really "stall" a game designed to end at a specific point via a timer. If there was no timer, and you were required to be the last one remaining, only then is it "stalling" to play for time.

Good points to add to the thread, thanks.

Nah

This is not a suggestion, rather just a place for people to put their opinion on this. What is - nah - referring to? Allow or disallow teaming?

 

[JokeKaedee]

I first read the question, thought about it, then read the replies. There are some fair points in these replies, though my first thought was that it should be allowed.

Imo, it's a casual game I wouldn't see as something for "tryhards", more like some fun game where players can play alone or with friends, and try their luck to see if they can make it out alive. Of course, there are players sweating on this gamemode, but I'm convinced the need for skill gets somewhat limited due to the nature of this game. I'm convinced it's a game you should be able to play with friends, and I also don't really see a separate team mode fitting for this game type.

I do understand Joke's above point about players trolling/stalling, so maybe some camping/trolling rule should be put in place for players stalling games, or, they could just remove the feature of letting everyone win when the timer ends and find a different way to make games end, like they did for BedWars with the decaying maps.

If this were to get implemented / changed, then I'd be completely fine with it. I personally do not have any issues with 'teaming', just the stalling problem. Totally agree with what Front said :)))

 

[asqsk]

That's certainly a good point, would love to see if people would have more suggestions as to what this could be as at the moment the current system is being abused by a small number of people.


Good points to add to the thread, thanks.


This is not a suggestion, rather just a place for people to put their opinion on this. What is - nah - referring to? Allow or disallow teaming?

disallow teaming.

 

[Mr Jii Gamer]

Teaming in Pillars of Fortune
​

Possibly staff could scale this poll up on the forums or discord to see if the community would like teaming to be disallowed in POF?

Not here to ask for it to be disallowed or anything. I'm just interested in what the community thinks.

If you vote no or yes, do say why below. This topic hasn't really been discussed as of yet I don't think.

Points made in the Thread/Discord
​

So far I have heard of the following reasons to why it should be disallowed:

- While it is often compared to Minerware, in POF teaming will much more likely get you a win than in Minerware. Sure, you can not kill someone in a microgame, but that certainly doesn't guarentee you enough points to win the Minerware game. Whereas in POF, it is much more likely you will win if you have a teammate.

- Stop win farming

- Stops games being stalled for a really long time



​

So far I have heard of the following reasons to why it should be allowed:

- It should be a game you can play with friends, it's casual

- This is not a game about being the last man standing, you're goal is not to take out other players but rather just to be still alive by the time the timer runs out (the only goal to the game is to not die). The only "opponent" in this game is death

-​

I a m with the allowed of teaming in the game bc its help you a lot

 

[Casualpoalrbear]

I think it should be allowed. As a Minerware main, trust me. Teaming almost always guarantee a win for the teamers and unlike in pillar of fortune you have to wait the full time. Ever had to waste a minute of your life because two Steve's won TNT speelf and are now waiting the timer out? It's long and boring. And unlike in Pillar of Fortune you have to stay because if your in like third place it actually still counts as a win for you, so unlike pillar of fortune you actually have to wait the full time. In pillar of fortune you have no reason to wait for the game to end (unless your playing with a friend who is still alive)

 

[Eli]

Honestly the first question we should ask ourselves is whether or not we should care too much, granted that it's a limited time minigame and whoever gets themselves on the leaderboard by win farming, is kinda wasting their time.

But ok, let's say we do care a lot, I am inclined to say that teaming should be DISALLOWED.

Back when I was a Moderator I was instructed that the teaming rule only applied for games with Team modes, hence why teaming is disallowed in EggWars, BlockWars, SkyWars, etc. But allowed in games like FFA and Minerware.

Pillars of Fortune doesn't have a team modality so by default teaming is allowed, however... is the logic applicable to Minerware and FFA still valid for Pillars of Fortune? In my opinion, no:

• FFA has no win condition, therefore you can only team up to obtain kills, but you can't team up TOO much, because kill farming is a punishable offense.
• MinerWare does have a win condition, but not all microgames can be directly influenced by teaming, many of them are actually solo in nature. Minerware is a hybrid of PvP and non-PvP microgames, and in PvP microgames, you can surely team yourself to victory. Therefore, teaming DOES help, but not a whole lot, there's no way that you could guarantee a 100% victory rate by teaming, unless you fill a whole game and ask your friends to INTENTIONALLY avoid winning any microgames. Do that at a greater scale and guess what, you'll be punished for win farming.
• In POF however, it's VERY likely that you can guarantee you'll win, granted that any and all interactions between players are PvP interactions in nature, you can DIRECTLY interfere with the result of the game, team up against some unsuspecting randoms, and hey, you win. To make matters even worse. the game doesn't necessarily reward you for being the last player standing, it just rewards you when the timer runs out, so not only can you farm wins and experience for yourself, you can actually do it for your WHOLE group and all of you receive the same rewards!

So if you thought instances of win farming were rare, just take a look at a minigame that allows multiple players to win and be rewarded at once! Suddenly everyone's gonna want to hop on a party and collect that sweet unethically obtained EXP.

Please prohibit teaming in POF!

 

[tuskedgnat72644，]

If teams could be formed in a competition, who wouldn't? ：）

 

[Blom]

There has been a lot of points about winning, being rewarded with XP and how it compares to other games where teaming is not prohibited. I think those are reasonable points, but I feel like one big point has been neglected, which I think is the most important.

Why do we play POF? Some to sweat, some to troll with friends, but in any case, you play it to have fun. What fun is differs per person, so I won't go into detail about the different actions players take while playing, and what motivated them to do so, but fun overall is the main motivation for every player.

That being settled, we should look at how teaming in POF influences how much fun a player can have. Three groups can be separated here: the teamers, the rest of the lobby and the spectators of the game

- Spectators
Whether it is because you died or joined through a party, watching teamers stall can be boring. However, as the rule is with every game, also the ones that prohibit teaming: as long as the entire lobby agrees to teaming, it is allowed (as it won't be reported anyways). Even though it sounds harsh, but when you're dead, you're not part of the lobby anymore, so your opinion doesn't matter anymore. If they teamed BEFORE you died, that's a whole different story, but if they start teaming only after you died, I'm sorry buddy...

TL;DR - With all due respect, when you are dead you have nothing to say about the game anymore, so just join the next one!

- Teamers
Obviously, playing with your friends is most fun. POF is a solo game, and as Frontlane already brought up:

I'm convinced it's a game you should be able to play with friends, and I also don't really see a separate team mode fitting for this game type.

You can't make a 2x2 pillar to have 2 players on it, so that option is gone. So, to team or not to team, that's the question.
Teaming and trolling with your friends can be fun, and there are always people that like to stall the game and do nothing, just for them to share the win, and see this as 'fun'. However, what the most fun about POF is, is the chaos. Teaming takes away this element pretty much, as you won't drop a Warden on your mate. If you do, it's as far from teaming as it can get.
Concluding: everyone has their own vision on what is fun, but it is imaginable that the only way teamers have fun is to only play for wins, as you otherwise take away from the POF elements that make it as fun as it is.

TL;DR - The motivation for teamers is likely to farm wins, which takes away from the game. Both perspectives exists, but personally I don't see the fun.

- Rest of Lobby
I think this is the most important factor when it comes to teaming. Just as I already said, it is already allowed to team when the entire lobby agrees on it. So, in whichever case, you will have players that do not approve of teaming. What is the impact on these players? Well, basically it takes away their fun. As said multiple times above:

it is almost a guaranteed win when you're teaming in this specific gamemode

Teaming almost always guarantee a win for the teamers

In POF however, it's VERY likely that you can guarantee you'll win, granted that any and all interactions between players are PvP interactions in nature, you can DIRECTLY interfere with the result of the game, team up against some unsuspecting randoms, and hey, you win

Therefore, the only mindset to get the win: "if you can't beat them, join them". Teaming gives the teamers an unfair advantage over players that try to enjoy the game alone. I like Eli's comparison with MinerWare, but even there it is to argue that you can prohibit teaming in PvP microgames. Different debate, would like not to get involved

TL;DR - Teaming takes away the fun for the rest of the lobby, as you either have to join them or guarantee to lose.

CONCLUDING: Overall, I believe the impact for the rest of the lobby is the biggest. Wanting to play with friends is fun, but the harm you bring to other players doesn't weigh up to the advantages of playing together. Therefore I believe teaming should be prohibited. A good alternative would be adding private lobbies so you and your friends can play without interfering with other players, but that has been planned for ages.

TL;DR - Prohibit teaming in POF. TL;DR's for all groups are underneath the explanation per group

 

[Casualpoalrbear]

@Blom I just want to point out my quote is more based on minerware and how teaming is actually just worst on minerware than on pillar of fortune as it does majorly change the game and unlike Pillar of Fortune, you have to wait for the game to end. Where in pillar of fortune, if you die then that's it, you can just go to a different game.


I wonder if adding a duo mode would solve this problem though, and I wonder how a duo mode would work.

 

[Eli]

Imo, it's a casual game I wouldn't see as something for "tryhards", more like some fun game where players can play alone or with friends, and try their luck to see if they can make it out alive.

I absolutely agree with this notion of the game as long as we know it's just a temporary "meme" game, but if for whatever reason the game leaves the Beta Cycle and becomes a permanent mode, it does need to be taken more seriously at least Moderation-wise, and adjust the rules accordingly.

You see: Pillars of fortune is different to other games. In the sense that to "win", you do not have to kill everyone or be the last one remaining, you have to survive until the time runs out. Meaning that fighting and killing in this mode is entirely optional, as the goal is to just survive.

Yeah you don't HAVE to, but you absolutely can, and in fact, that's exactly how people are currently obtaining so many wins, they get themselves in a big party, target everyone who's not their friends, and then wait for the timer to run out.

How is that a reason not to disallow teaming? Simple: It is not a gamemode based on the principle of "there can only be one". It isn't a mode based on "everyone vs everyone", where everyone is supposed to be your opponent. Its a mode based on the principle of "just don't die".

That would be true if there were only environmental factors that could kill the players, i.e. if PvP was disabled, but it's not, so it IS in fact, a game of everyone vs everyone, and all other environmental factors are just additions to that dynamic.

Technically everyone is on the same team of "don't die", unlike other modes, like eggwars, where you are assigned a specific team/color with the explicit goal of being the last one alive.

Once again I disagree, you can't really be on the same team if you have the direct ability to harm each other and eliminate each other at will.

I think you're interpreting POF as a more chaotic game than it actually is, the game does have some predictability and some strategies work better than others. INCLUDING, teaming up on unsuspecting players with your whole party. There is absolutely a sense of intentionality in the people who are utilizing the current teaming rule to their advantage, there's no way that a player going solo can outsmart an entire party, REGARDLESS if the rest of the game conditions are random.

 

[Matriox]

I think it should be allowed. As a Minerware main, trust me. Teaming almost always guarantee a win for the teamers and unlike in pillar of fortune you have to wait the full time. Ever had to waste a minute of your life because two Steve's won TNT speelf and are now waiting the timer out? It's long and boring. And unlike in Pillar of Fortune you have to stay because if your in like third place it actually still counts as a win for you, so unlike pillar of fortune you actually have to wait the full time. In pillar of fortune you have no reason to wait for the game to end (unless your playing with a friend who is still alive)

You are taking this as "you are guarenteed a win in a specific microgame if you team" I think, which is true for PVP games perhaps. But this doesn't guarentee you an overall win in the game of Minerware, although it does increase your chances. As said by many teaming in POF much more likely guarentees you the win, would you agree?

 

[Casualpoalrbear]

You are taking this as "you are guarenteed a win in a specific microgame if you team" I think, which is true for PVP games perhaps. But this doesn't guarentee you an overall win in the game of Minerware, although it does increase your chances. As said by many teaming in POF much more likely guarentees you the win, would you agree?

Nah there are plenty of way that teaming can screw up even non pvp microgames. Such as coin collection, mine the (insert random ore here) every single knock back game, nerd pole, tower up, splat, colour floor TNT spleef are all super difficult to win if people team and sabotage. There are other microgames which you can sabotage but is way harder to do (like hide from the cat, line dash and most team games). If you had to kill everyone to win pillar of fortune I would agree but because you just have to survive I would say Minerware and Pillar of Fortune are about equal. Sure you can get really lucky and get a game of Minerware where it almost impossible to get sabotage on, but that be pretty rare occurrence. I'd say Teaming is just as bad on both if they were to happen but teamers just target minerware less, so It less obivous.

Sorry if my reply was long I just get passionate about minerware lol.

 

[adrian525pl]

That would be true if there were only environmental factors that could kill the players, i.e. if PvP was disabled, but it's not, so it IS in fact, a game of everyone vs everyone, and all other environmental factors are just additions to that dynamic.

No, it IS true for as long as the game does not force you to be the last one standing in order to win. Environmental factors do not matter if you never have to kill anyone to win. Only if the game was a "last one standing" type of thing, then it'd not be true.

Once again I disagree, you can't really be on the same team if you have the direct ability to harm each other and eliminate each other at will.

Just wait until you learn about the concept of "friendly fire".

Being teammates does not mean you should be able to hurt each other. You absolutely can be on the same team while also being able to hurt and kill each other. A lot of games do it this way. The only thing I will add here is that some of them limit the amount of team kills you can do before you get punished for it (punished by the game), because at some point that's just you actively sabotaging the team, but the point still stands.

the game does have some predictability

As long as I can't predict when a player will get an ender dragon spawn egg or some other stuff like that, that's a no. As long as there is an element of complete randomness with this much impact, that's a no.

some strategies work better than others

I agree to an extent, while some strategies have a higher success rate than others, there is no 100% effective one, not in this game, not for as long as that massive element of randomness is there.

There is absolutely a sense of intentionality in the people who are utilizing the current teaming rule to their advantage, there's no way that a player going solo can outsmart an entire party, REGARDLESS if the rest of the game conditions are random.

I am aware of that, but there is also nothing inherently unfair or wrong about it. Just like players have the right to do that in FFA, they also have that here. How chaotic the gamemode is can be debated, but you can't deny chaos is supposed to be the point, that's a part of that chaos.

And as long as the goal of the game isn't explicitly to be the last one remaining, as long as it is based on "everyone vs death"/isn't based on "last one standing", they have the complete right to do so with there being nothing wrong with it other than the fact it gets very irritating to the players who are not in those parties.

 

[Dreamer]

I was against teaming in PoF when it came out but I have really not lost any games to teamers nor have I experienced a serious disadvantage when there were teamers. The one with the best weapon/spawn egg and skill will most likely win anyways. (I have not seen any situations with more then 3 players teaming tho)

I have also stumbled across friends in the game and then its nice to just chill with them and team instead of having to balance being nice to them and not teaming.