betty's oldies
Forum Expert
This is a response to this thread. As a veteran FFA player who has played FFA for 6 years with (except berserker) and against all kits, this will not work out in the long run as it doesn't solve the problem of running away or cleaning, two features of the game that many people complain about FFA.
ALL factors must be considered before making suggestions (see Chesterton's Fence). Bolded points are the most important factors to consider. I've divided this thread into a short version and a long version.
Short version: For FFA, here's a summary of the long version of this suggestion.
Long version is everything else below. For FFA, here's comprehensive background information about the current game.
The regeneration suggestion aims at trying to make high killstreaks easier to use and reduce running, but here's what happens if that suggestion were to be implemented.
Conclusion: All things considered, FFA is fine as is (save for archer kit damage output against beast/warrior). If regen were added, please test thoroughly in test lobbies BEFORE adding to the actual game. This month, there were already many attempts at adding features to FFA to the point where FFA was unplayable due to game breaking bugs.
ALL factors must be considered before making suggestions (see Chesterton's Fence). Bolded points are the most important factors to consider. I've divided this thread into a short version and a long version.
Short version: For FFA, here's a summary of the long version of this suggestion.
- FFA at its core is simple.
- Health is a resource.
- Java FFA has a shop where players can buy equipment (golden apples, bow, arrows, armor, sword).
- Health regenerates at a default rate of 0.25 HP/second (1 HP/4 seconds). With regen 1, this becomes 0.65 HP/second. With regen 2, this becomes 1.05 HP/second.
- A player enters combat only when a player either deals or receives damage to/from another player. Environmental damage (fall, lava, drowning, etc.) do not cause the player to enter combat.
- Fights are dynamic: a 1v1 can quickly turn into 2 or more against 1, where odds are stacked in favor of at least 1 side.
- Adding out-of-combat regen punishes aggressive playstyles, i.e. those who never leave the combat timer. The player will be forced to take breaks between kills to benefit from the boosted regen, resulting in fewer kills that could've been made during the wait.
- Running and cleaning are part of the game since the very beginning of Minecraft PvP.
- All kits will be affected by the update: the archer, wizard, and samurai kits are more heavily affected.
Long version is everything else below. For FFA, here's comprehensive background information about the current game.
- FFA at its core is simple. It's simply spawn in, kill players, and respawn if the player dies. Nothing except points (Java only) and XP are awarded for kills. This game is very good for practicing PvP before taking on more challenging PvP games such as Survival Games, as losing in FFA isn't as penalizing as losing in other games.
- Health is a resource. It is a primary factor that players should use to decide whether to enter combat or not. Having higher effective health means the player has more room for error.
- Terrain plays a MAJOR role in combat. This is applicable to ALL kits.
- This determines how well the player can set up combos. Being slightly below the opponent allows the player to more easily set up combos.
- Tight corridors can limit how well players can strafe. An archer can take advantage of this to land easy shots.
- Cliffs and environmental hazards can be used by all classes, with knockback swords having more potential to knock opponents into them.
- However, knockback swords are harder to use. Hitting the opponent too many times may cause the opponent to not enter the hazard and instead pass over it. As such, the player must know how many hits are needed to knock opponents into hazards if the player is using a knockback sword.
- On Java, there is a shop that players can use to buy golden apples and gear. There is no shop on Bedrock.
- Players can do /kill to respawn back to full health. Those with the battle arena rank (Bedrock) or a rank on Java can respawn in set locations.
- There are currently 6 kits in FFA, 3 of which have a perk that helps them kill runners.
- Wizard kit comes with potions, but it has leather prot 3 armor. Wizard heavily relies on potions to perform well, with regen being key to being on par with the other kits. Each kill grants 1 random potion if its cap is not reached. This kit is harder to learn and is the second most difficult kit to master, tied with samurai. This kit can take out runners by itself using speed 2 potions; combine melee with its speed 2 to prevent even samurai from escaping melee range.
- Archer kit comes with a power 3 bow, but it has a knockback 1 iron sword and prot 2 iron armor. This kit relies heavily on bow accuracy and external damage sources (environmental, cleaning, etc). Each kill grants 8 arrows. This kit discourages use of melee due to its knockback sword, making combo setup and locking harder to pull off. Additionally, the power 3 bow doesn't do much damage against the beast/warrior kit as they take 2-3 of damage per fully charged arrow hit. It takes at least 8 fully charged hits to kill a warrior kit and 12 hits to kill a beast kit, both from full health. This kit is easier to learn compared to wizard, but it is harder to pick up compared to beast/warrior and is the most difficult kit to master. This kit can take out runners by itself using its bow.
- Beast and warrior come with a full set of diamond armor and a diamond sword, with the beast kit having full prot 1 and the warrior kit having sharp 2. These two are the most commonly used kits and are very straightforward with gameplay. Melee damage output is superb, on par with the wizard kit for the warrior. However, their durability comes with a price: they have no special perks compared to the other kits (wizard potions, archer bow, samurai speed). These two kits are the easiest to pick up and have a lower global skill ceiling compared to the rest of the kits.
- Samurai kit comes with a knockback 1 sharp 1 diamond sword, a leather helmet, prot 3 diamond chestplate, and diamond boots that have prot 3 and feather falling 3. This kit has permanent speed 2. It is the most resistant to fall damage, but it is the least durable in combat. Combos are harder to pull off due to the knockback sword, but they are still possible to pull off. For support roles, this kit is excellent: the permanent speed 2 can be combined to boost another kit such as beast/warrior, effectively giving the latter a speed bonus. This kit can take out runners by itself using permanent speed 2, but the player should position himself before hitting the target.
- Berserker kit comes with a diamond axe (essentially a clean iron sword on Bedrock), a knockback 1 wooden sword, diamond boots, diamond legs with prot 1, and a diamond chestplate. In Bedrock, with melee only, this kit is a weaker version of the beast/warrior. With environmental hazards around, the wooden sword can be used to knock opponents into them. In Java, however, its axe does more damage.
- Killstreaks are reset on death or when leaving the lobby. A high killstreak in the 100+ range before the lobby resets is notably difficult to pull off due to how many enemies the player will inherently make by killing everyone on sight.
- To preserve killstreak, players SHOULD ALREADY be running away if they know they cannot win the fight. This encourages players to evaluate whether entering fights is worth the risk or not.
- Health regenerates at a default rate of 1 HP per 4 seconds (0.25 HP per second). With regen 1 (wizard kit only), this becomes a rate of 2.6 HP per 4 seconds (0.65 HP per second).
- Only the wizard kit benefits from extra regen. All other kits don't, but they have some means of minimizing damage.
- Wizard and samurai have speed 2 to help run away.
- Archer kit is not designed for entering melee combat. To compensate, archers must use the bow to output damage before endangering themselves.
- Beast/warrior kit is the most durable of all the kits.
- Only the wizard kit benefits from extra regen. All other kits don't, but they have some means of minimizing damage.
- Entering melee combat REQUIRES both the player and the opponent(s) to expose themselves in order to deal damage.
- Teaming is allowed. It's possible to get into 1v1 or teaming situations such as 1v2, 1v3, 2v2, 3v3, etc.
- This is a very important point to consider. 1v1s can quickly turn into team situations where one side gains support.
The regeneration suggestion aims at trying to make high killstreaks easier to use and reduce running, but here's what happens if that suggestion were to be implemented.
- Players can take environmental damage outside combat and not suffer as much from it. Many maps have environmental hazards. Unless it is a fatal fall, the player's regen will effectively reduce environmental damage. The player can also heal up after taking fall damage. This makes environmental hazards less threatening than they are; areas such as Kingdom's lava or jumping off from the cliffside in Kingdom will have less effect.
- Running away is part of the game. This encourages players to run away even more to heal up if they drop low, especially for those who have speed 2.
- High killstreaks are meant to be challenging to obtain. Trying to get a high killstreak tests players on situational awareness, decision making, combat skills, movement, and techniques. Players who attempt this challenge must be fully aware of the consequences of their actions, be it by taking too much damage from any sources or killing too many opponents as other players will most likely team up to take down the player.
- Players are penalized by losing their killstreak if they try to use loopholes such as /kill to respawn in front of an opponent.
- A lot of fights are lost due to bad decision making on the player's part. Choosing when to fight is key to minimize damage taken.
- With regen, this encourages players to develop bad habits. For those who already have situational awareness and choose their battles, it makes them even more OP as they're now even more difficult to kill.
- This makes health more expendable and takes away less of the risk factor of engaging in fights.
- Aggressive players (such as accurate archers) who stay in combat most of the time will never be able to benefit from the out-of-combat regen. This encourages players to be more passive than aggressive.
- Cleaning is also part of the game.
- Hit and run is emphasized in the samurai and the wizard kits due to their speed 2. If players can hit opponents before the out-of-combat timer comes in while their opponents don't ever land a hit, the two kits can heal much sooner while the opponent cannot heal due to the combat timer.
- What ends up happening with the regen effect is that all the kits end up being more durable.
- Archer kits are penalized even more if they miss their shots. As stated, they don't gain any arrows (they actually lose arrows) if they attempt to completely bow down a beast/warrior kit, taking misses into account. With misses, the opponent can regen because the opponent will technically not be in combat as (s)he has not recently taken damage.
- Archer kits are heavily map dependent. On maps that don't have many hazards (e.g. canals) or vastly open terrain, they will lose arrows unless they risk entering melee combat to finish off weakened opponents.
- Archer damage output against beast/warrior kit is another topic. This is for a different suggestion where the bow could be buffed to power 4 (no harming arrows as low-power bow spamming will guarantee at least 6 damage per hit).
- As of writing this, environmental kills don't always give credit to the person who most recently dealt damage (even within 5 seconds since the killer dealt damage). This penalizes archers and wizards as those kills will not grant arrows and potions respectively.
- Wizard kits will have little reason to use regen potions. The regen potion allows them to return to combat sooner and regen during the fight. With the suggestion added, they have less reason to use regen potions. At that point, the regen potion would then be used only to regen during fights (drinking potions during a fight can and will result in massive damage taken or even a death). It would be overwritten by regen 2 if it were added, as regen 2 supersedes the wizard's regen 1 potions. Even regen 1 from outside combat will overwrite the regen 1 potion effect (out-of-combat regen is permanent unless in combat; regen has no effect if the player at full HP), resulting in the wizard entering combat without regen 1.
- Without regen, beast/warrior kits must (carefully) set up combos and combo lock the opponent. Breaking this combo results in the player taking more damage or even getting combo locked by the opponent. This is what often separates decent beast/warrior kits from good ones; it's not always a good idea to attempt to set up a combo since it depends on where the player wants to combo the opponent. With regen, beasts/warrior kits become even more difficult to kill and chase, as if they were durable enough.
- If the player is against a team consisting of a wizard/samurai and other kits, good luck trying to survive that. The wizard/samurai can position themselves to be behind the beast/warrior to give the latter a boost. The player will not heal fast enough even with regen added and will still be forced into combat due to the player being outsped by the team.
So far, only Wulfiee has provided input as to why regen should be added.
- Response 1: "[Players] wouldn't need to wait 40 seconds to regen."
- Counter: 40 seconds of regen under the default rate is enough to regenerate to at least 50% HP as long as the player doesn't take additional damage. For beasts, that's almost as much effective HP as a fully healed archer. This is enough HP to set up a combo with some room for error (it is even possible to combo without ever taking a hit from the opponent).
Conclusion: All things considered, FFA is fine as is (save for archer kit damage output against beast/warrior). If regen were added, please test thoroughly in test lobbies BEFORE adding to the actual game. This month, there were already many attempts at adding features to FFA to the point where FFA was unplayable due to game breaking bugs.
EDIT: Added shop and /kill to current situation.
EDIT 2: Bolded important points. If you agree or disagree, please explain why after reading at least the bolded points.
EDIT 3: Noted wizard, archer, and samurai kits as kits designed to kill runners.
EDIT 4: Of the 7 people who agree with this thread, only 3 of those have replied. 4 people have disagreed with this, yet none of those who have disagreed has stated why regen should be added after considering these points.
EDIT 4.5: 2 more have disagreed. Only @Wulfiee had provided a response for adding regen. His response was posted on CubeCraft's battle arena Discord channel.
EDIT 5: Cleaned up the thread by making a short version. Long version contains comprehensive information.
EDIT 2: Bolded important points. If you agree or disagree, please explain why after reading at least the bolded points.
EDIT 3: Noted wizard, archer, and samurai kits as kits designed to kill runners.
EDIT 4: Of the 7 people who agree with this thread, only 3 of those have replied. 4 people have disagreed with this, yet none of those who have disagreed has stated why regen should be added after considering these points.
EDIT 4.5: 2 more have disagreed. Only @Wulfiee had provided a response for adding regen. His response was posted on CubeCraft's battle arena Discord channel.
EDIT 5: Cleaned up the thread by making a short version. Long version contains comprehensive information.
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