Was the update even tested? (TD Rant)

[Qin Shihuangdi]

So as I've figured some things out after the update I'm realizing how poor the testing was with how unbalanced some strategies are.

Part 1: Rushing

Everybody knows about the hardcore / quick start silverfish abuse. Find some of the endless threads about it here:
https://www.cubecraft.net/threads/how-to-counter-the-dreaded-silverfish-rush.196226/
https://www.cubecraft.net/threads/mods-deleted-a-thread-about-a-huge-issue.196007

But I found something else that's pretty unbeatable with a good team that works in any game. Me, @Rigel_The_Star , and @ChasingRainbows were playing some tower defense the other night and we came up with the idea to just spam a bunch of pigmen at the start of the game. An guess what! We played probably about 15 games and we eliminated the castle with pigmen in all but one or two games.

Now, keep in mind we only sent 24 pigmen in an initial wave and then another 12 in a follow-up wave. Imagine a team of 5 players who each send 10 pigmen - you now have 50 pigmen charging at your castle - and there's nothing you can do about it! Before the update, pigmen were never that big of a threat as artillery could easily eliminate them. But with a full artillery costing 1,100 and the 10 pigmen only costing 1,000 + 220, you can't place like anything.

And don't even say "Place turrets" because they can not eliminate 50 pigmen. Simple as that.

And don't forget - pigmen are not the only mob they can send. Imagine you build a defense against the pigmen but they instead send silverfish - you now have absolutely nothing that can even attack them.

Before Update: "Balanced defense" meant defending against Blazes, Magma Cubes, and Giants using a balance of towers 20+ minutes in
Now: "Balanced Defense" refers to building defense against Pigmen and Silverfish under 3 minutes in.

Part 2: Useless Mobs

Blazes and giants were the game enders before the update. Now, neither one of them can do crap. I've only had 2 games where I used blazes due to a team that had a heavy level 2 necromancer defense.

And giant can't do a thing. Let's see how to fix them:

New Blazes:
Level 1:
Health: 410 ---> 600
Damage: 1
Speed: 1.6 (Normal)
XP: 210
Send: 800 ---> 625

Level 2:
Health: 574 ---> 775
Damage: 1
Speed: 2.2 (Fast)
XP: 222
Send: 880 ---> 700

Level 3:
Health: 804 ---> 997
Damage: 1
Speed: 2.8 (Very fast)
XP: 230
Send: 960 ---> 775

Level 4:
Turns into Ghast
Invisible to all Towers except Zeus and Leach (they'll fly very high above the track so that arrows "can't hit them")

Health: 1125 ---> 450
Damage: 1
Speed: 1.6
XP: 242
Send: 1065 ---> 850

Level 5:
Invisible to all Towers except Zeus and Leach
Health: 1575 ---> 591
Damage: 2
Speed: 1.6
Speed: 278
Send: 1171 ---> 950

New Giants:
Level 1:
Health: 2200 ---> 3000
Damage: 10
Speed: Slow (1.2)
XP: 850
Send: 5000

Level 2:
Chain armor
Health: 3080 ---> 4000
Speed: Normal (1.6)
Damage: 20
XP: 895
Send: 5500

Level 3:
Diamond armor
Health: 4312 ---> 5150
Speed: Fast (2.0)
Damage: 30
XP: 955
Send: 6250

Level 4:
Turns into Ender Dragon
Corrupts towers (makes them heal enemies if not taken down quickly)

Health: 6037 ---> 6650
Speed: Slow (1.2)
Damage: 50
XP: 1035
Send: 7850

Level 5:
Health: 8452
Speed: Slow (1.2)
Damage: Insta-Kill
XP: 1222
Send: 10000

Part 3: Badly Unbalanced Towers
Back to the original rushing part of the rant for a second. Although turrets are obviously the best tower, 50 pigmen can not be stopped without AoE towers. And what did Cube do? Spiked up the prices for no good reason. So you now have no way to stop the pigmen and trying to put up your best pigmen defense and finishing them off with a sword will screw you over if they send silverfish.

Also, let's fix turrets. Damage and fire rate will be badly decreased in exchange for path 1 becoming an AoE. Path 2 will be buffed but with similar mechanics.

Artillery will get a price decrease.

And I'm definitely forgetting things so yeah.

Part 4: The Cave Spider Glitch

This is the proof the update was poorly tested. I mean, how do attacks from 2 towers on a popular attack mob sneak by the staff? And with some towers cave spiders are the only way to reach the castle.

Tags: @ronnielei @HurmitCurtis @Manchot999 @Rigel_The_Star @ChasingRainbows @meowwie @ymbmg @Buuuddy @iLoveYouu

 

[Sophie]

Why has this not been fixed? Players are abusing a loophole and are earning thousands of points and experience at other people's expenses. This variant really needs to be removed now, so that it can be balanced properly. There is no point in fixing it without taking the game offline in the meantime, since by then, a massive potential player-base has been lost and a few individuals have benefited heavily from it. A leaderboards role-back should also be considered.

 

[ymbmg]

The update was tested. I'm not sure why I was tagged, but I do agree that the game's turned into a mess. It's nice to see that even players that don't know each other are posting about the unbalanced system. However, unless official word is released that these problems will be fixed, I would appreciate not being tagged again. I've not been on since the update was announced except to look for support for the return of classic mode. For those players out there that still take the game seriously post-update, I advise giving up on the mess that this game's turned into and looking elsewhere for another balanced game to play. As for the people tagged, meowwie hasn't been on the forums since August the 14th, the leader-board players don't have a say in how this mode's turned out, ronnielei isn't staff, and you didn't even tag Toropov. In case you're not aware, he's one of the developers that worked on both the original, well-balanced game, and the updated version of the game. Now, as a fellow programmer that knows what it's like to be pressured into deadlines, my sympathy goes towards him.

If you still think that the game's still not worth giving on, that's good, but let me fill you in on things that you may not be aware of. For starters, I don't believe that Cubecraft takes Tower Defence seriously at all. The pinned thread guides have not been updated post-update. The pinned guides were wrong pre-update (ice towers hit more than one mob) and it was pointed out, glitches like giant's not showing their health has not been fixed, the requests that the community has asked for have been turned down, and despite several posts talking about the unbalance, public word has not been given that fixes are underway. Here are some cited threads showing evidence that supports my claims:

For the ice tower information in the guides:
"The reason you do not want much association with this tower throughout the game is because it's incredibly opportunity-reliant and ineffective. It doesn't slow down your targets enough for it to make a significant difference, nor does it provide an Area of Effect, meaning that it targets enemies individually. On the other hand, you can purchase a Slowness Potion for only 200 points, which will create an enormous region in which all enemies caught inside will be brought to a snail's pace."
The quote above was taken from this guide here: https://www.cubecraft.net/threads/tower-defence-tower-information.96571/
Now, the ex-staff member that posted the guide did make a request asking for someone else to post the thread instead, as shown in the comments section for this thread here:
https://www.cubecraft.net/threads/ice-tower-in-staffs-post.183121/

As for when the staff does and doesn't look at suggestions, glitch reports, etc. they seem to be very hit-and-miss about which threads they take seriously, and which ones they don't. Here are some examples:

The following thread is a report of votekick abuse, which ended up getting taken seriously: https://www.cubecraft.net/threads/kicked-for-nothing.193510/
Here is one about adding a skill-based ranked system: https://www.cubecraft.net/threads/b...wer-defense-ranking-system-and-league.170029/
Here is a thread about the request of classic Tower Defence (a request for the pre-update version) that had strong support for it: https://www.cubecraft.net/threads/request-for-the-return-of-classic-mode.195553/

The votekick threads were taken seriously in the end, but the ranked system (which had 10/10 votes asking for it) wasn't implemented. Likewise, the last thread asks for classic mode back, and had seemingly incredible support for it. Even with over one thousand views, 36 votes in favor for it, and support from the leader-board players, it wasn't taken seriously.

If you're still not convinced that Cubecraft doesn't take Tower Defence seriously, leave a comment below, and I'll happily provide you with even more evidence.

I'm ymbmg95 in-game. Thanks for reading.

 

[Rose2247]

Why has this not been fixed? Players are abusing a loophole and are earning thousands of points and experience at other people's expenses. This variant really needs to be removed now, so that it can be balanced properly. There is no point in fixing it without taking the game offline in the meantime, since by then, a massive potential player-base has been lost and a few individuals have benefited heavily from it. A leaderboards role-back should also be considered.

^
When obsidian ranks do this, me and my friend and I call these people scumbags. There has to be some way to stop this. Maybe make it so if hardcore is picked, quick start can't be picked too.

 

[Qin Shihuangdi]

^
When obsidian ranks do this, me and my friend and I call these people scumbags. There has to be some way to stop this. Maybe make it so if hardcore is picked, quick start can't be picked too.

If double income is picked, it's worse. Send one wave of zombies and then pigmen. Read part 1 of my thing

 

[Rose2247]

If double income is picked, it's worse. Send one wave of zombies and then pigmen. Read part 1 of my thing

I know this. I'm diamond rank(saving for emerald) and I'd love to see a change.

 

[ChasingRainbows]

I agree with everything tbh. And the pigman rush is much harder to deal with if more than one person is sending them. If 2 people are pigrushing you it's like 10x harder to stop than just one person doing it.

 

[ronniewhy]

Why has this not been fixed? Players are abusing a loophole and are earning thousands of points and experience at other people's expenses. This variant really needs to be removed now, so that it can be balanced properly. There is no point in fixing it without taking the game offline in the meantime, since by then, a massive potential player-base has been lost and a few individuals have benefited heavily from it.

In all honesty I believe that Cubecraft has already lost a massive potential player base just by releasing a Tower Defence update that is substantially different than the original and not keeping the original around. I agree that the variant that players are abusing should be removed immediately or Cubecraft could lose even more players.

As for the balance suggestions, I don't believe just putting out numbers without proper testing will do any good. The Tower Defence update was in testing for over 2 months (or at least that's what I was told) and they were not able to make it balanced in time for the update. That is the issue with all this, we can all propose ideas but without proper testing they are just unbalanced.

 

[Manchot999]

So as I've figured some things out after the update I'm realizing how poor the testing was with how unbalanced some strategies are.

Part 1: Rushing

Everybody knows about the hardcore / quick start silverfish abuse. Find some of the endless threads about it here:
https://www.cubecraft.net/threads/how-to-counter-the-dreaded-silverfish-rush.196226/
https://www.cubecraft.net/threads/mods-deleted-a-thread-about-a-huge-issue.196007

But I found something else that's pretty unbeatable with a good team that works in any game. Me, @Rigel_The_Star , and @ChasingRainbows were playing some tower defense the other night and we came up with the idea to just spam a bunch of pigmen at the start of the game. An guess what! We played probably about 15 games and we eliminated the castle with pigmen in all but one or two games.

Now, keep in mind we only sent 24 pigmen in an initial wave and then another 12 in a follow-up wave. Imagine a team of 5 players who each send 10 pigmen - you now have 50 pigmen charging at your castle - and there's nothing you can do about it! Before the update, pigmen were never that big of a threat as artillery could easily eliminate them. But with a full artillery costing 1,100 and the 10 pigmen only costing 1,000 + 220, you can't place like anything.

And don't even say "Place turrets" because they can not eliminate 50 pigmen. Simple as that.

And don't forget - pigmen are not the only mob they can send. Imagine you build a defense against the pigmen but they instead send silverfish - you now have absolutely nothing that can even attack them.

Before Update: "Balanced defense" meant defending against Blazes, Magma Cubes, and Giants using a balance of towers 20+ minutes in
Now: "Balanced Defense" refers to building defense against Pigmen and Silverfish under 3 minutes in.

Well, how did you get pigmen this early into the game when Quick Start only gives you 100 EXP to start with? But then again, You only need to send 8 zombies at the beginning of the game to get that 50 EXP you need to start sending pigmen. And then, with the coins the silverfish give you when you kill them... The enemy track is full of deadly pigmen. In normal games, you're right though, having a few waves will kill all. Even when not in a coordinated team, they will still have a good chance. (The level 4 and 5 skeletons are just as good too for midgame, and the magma cubes (lv 4 and 5 slimes) for late game).

Part 2: Useless Mobs

Blazes and giants were the game enders before the update. Now, neither one of them can do crap. I've only had 2 games where I used blazes due to a team that had a heavy level 2 necromancer defense.

And giant can't do a thing. Let's see how to fix them:

New Blazes:
Level 1:
Health: 410 ---> 600
Damage: 1
Speed: 1.6 (Normal)
XP: 210
Send: 800 ---> 625

Level 2:
Health: 574 ---> 775
Damage: 1
Speed: 2.2 (Fast)
XP: 222
Send: 880 ---> 700

Level 3:
Health: 804 ---> 997
Damage: 1
Speed: 2.8 (Very fast)
XP: 230
Send: 960 ---> 775

Level 4:
Turns into Ghast
Invisible to all Towers except Zeus and Leach (they'll fly very high above the track so that arrows "can't hit them")

Health: 1125 ---> 450
Damage: 1
Speed: 1.6
XP: 242
Send: 1065 ---> 850

Level 5:
Invisible to all Towers except Zeus and Leach
Health: 1575 ---> 591
Damage: 2
Speed: 1.6
Speed: 278
Send: 1171 ---> 950

New Giants:
Level 1:
Health: 2200 ---> 3000
Damage: 10
Speed: Slow (1.2)
XP: 850
Send: 5000

Level 2:
Chain armor
Health: 3080 ---> 4000
Speed: Normal (1.6)
Damage: 20
XP: 895
Send: 5500

Level 3:
Diamond armor
Health: 4312 ---> 5150
Speed: Fast (2.0)
Damage: 30
XP: 955
Send: 6250

Level 4:
Turns into Ender Dragon
Corrupts towers (makes them heal enemies if not taken down quickly)

Health: 6037 ---> 6650
Speed: Slow (1.2)
Damage: 50
XP: 1035
Send: 7850

Level 5:
Health: 8452
Speed: Slow (1.2)
Damage: Insta-Kill
XP: 1222
Send: 10000

Well, sometimes, things must be changed. It's normal for things that used to be overpowered to become less powerful, but it's still not a reason to just turn the game into this :
What it used to be : "OH NO A GIANT WE'RE ALL GOING TO DIE DEFEND YOU NOOB TEAM"
What it is now : "Oh look, a giant. MINE! GET AWAY WITH YOUR INFERNOS, I WANT THE COINS!"
I do agree with your suggestions though, since they're creative, and you know that by just looking at them you know it will work. (dragons may be a bit too huge though).

Part 3: Badly Unbalanced Towers
Back to the original rushing part of the rant for a second. Although turrets are obviously the best tower, 50 pigmen can not be stopped without AoE towers. And what did Cube do? Spiked up the prices for no good reason. So you now have no way to stop the pigmen and trying to put up your best pigmen defense and finishing them off with a sword will screw you over if they send silverfish.

Also, let's fix turrets. Damage and fire rate will be badly decreased in exchange for path 1 becoming an AoE. Path 2 will be buffed but with similar mechanics.

Artillery will get a price decrease.

And I'm definitely forgetting things so yeah.

With 3 or 4 turrets, some ice and some quake, most pigmen can't get through, and if they do, you can just build more turrets. But if you do that, you won't be able to send pigmen yourself, and will just get stuck under the pressure as more and more keep coming. I'm ok with price increases, but it seems the towers that had one have still the same level of power.

Part 4: The Cave Spider Glitch

This is the proof the update was poorly tested. I mean, how do attacks from 2 towers on a popular attack mob sneak by the staff? And with some towers cave spiders are the only way to reach the castle.

That's not a huge problem since cave spiders aren't the best anyways, and you really need precise timing with your regeneration potions to make it. Also, inferno. It just symbolizes that things were not playtested.
Tags: @ronnielei @HurmitCurtis @Manchot999 @Rigel_The_Star @ChasingRainbows @meowwie @ymbmg @Buuuddy @iLoveYouu

I have lots of respect for the developpers for spending time and effort and brainstorming to find things. They have done a fantastic job, it just wasn't playtested enough. I mean, all the concepts in this update are creative, simply unbalanced.