All Networks EggWars - Bring back Leather Armor to Overpowered Shop Items

[SlinkyGnu05604]

Hello CubeCrafters, I’m here with a small but game changing suggestion for OP EggWars, Leather Armor!

Before we get into the suggestion, let me provide a context for what's going on:

CubeCraft did a community talk back when "EggWars Tweaks" was in development and they asked the EggWars community on their thoughts on armor in OP mode, specifically leather armor. Unfortunately, no armor changes were made when the update released, which brings us to this suggestion. The community talk isn't even closed as of making this suggestion.

How does the addition of Leather armor change the game you may ask?

Leather armor used to be the most important aspect of the original overpowered EggWars. It was the lowest armor tier prior to season 2 and it was balanced compared to iron armor being the lowest armor tier due to its low durability, so it can be broken easily during long fights, encouraging players to have backup armor sets.

However, protection 4 was in the original EggWars and today it is protection 3. Iron armor being the lowest armor tier defeats the purpose of backup armor sets since iron armor has about 3 times more durability than leather armor, making it unlikely to break especially considering armor is protection 3 now, where you are likely to kill players before you break a piece of their armor. A small detail leather armor has that iron armor doesn’t have is that its color coded to what team the player is on, and it looks even better enchanted in my opinion.

With armor being protection 3 across the board, the time to kill in the early game is going to be much faster than it used to be. I'm curious to see how it goes should this suggestion be implemented. However, there could be a chance that all armor gets bumped to protection 4 to make leather armor give similar protection to protection 3 iron armor and to allow the possibility of breaking people's armor to happen, which is one of the biggest aspects of the original overpowered mode. If protection 4 was to return, I believe it's best to kept it exclusive to Bedrock since time to kill is so long on Java that protection 3 makes sense there in my opinion. If Java players also want protection 4, you can apply it to Java as well.

Also, this suggestion could possibly bring back scrims due to how popular leather armor is and especially with the right way of balancing the game.

How will leather armor impact armor balancing?

Leather armor being present in the game will change armor tiers to match Normal mode, with leather being the lowest tier, iron being the mid tier armor, diamond being the highest tier armor unless Netherite armor is kept into the game which makes it the end tier armor.

This armor balancing is needed especially because diamond armor is way too strong to be a mid tier armor in Overpowered (has the same protection as netherite armor and double the durability of iron armor). Netherite armor is diamond armor but with extra durability, knockback resistance when full set is worn and extra armor toughness (at least for Java), did some tests and while I can't see any damage difference, that is why I felt like netherite armored players are hard to kill.

Here are my suggested prices to balance armor:

Leather – 6 iron (10 iron if armor is changed to protection 4)
Iron – 42 gold
Diamond – 64 diamonds (128 if armor is changed to protection 4)
Netherite (If kept in the game for some reason) - 128 diamonds (256 if armor is changed to protection 4)

What are your thoughts on this suggestion? Let me know in the comments.

Edit 1: Made each question clear by underlining them and added more info on armor balancing.
Edit 2: Confirmed Netherite armor knockback resistance full set bonus for Java (Thanks @Loskol!)
Edit 3: Forgot to mention armor toughness stat. This shows that I don't play Java often, even though the Bedrock server uses Java code. (Thanks @adrian525pl!)
Edit 4: Leather armor's suggested price will be 10 iron if armor is made protection 4.

 

[Lord of Ducks]

I totally agree with this! The fights last way too long currently and I like the idea of shorter fights. (this is exactly why I prefer normal mode)

 

[SlinkyGnu05604]

I totally agree with this! The fights last way too long currently and I like the idea of shorter fights. (this is exactly why I prefer normal mode)

Same here! I switched to normal mode because they made fights last way too long in Overpowered mode, it's so annoying when it gets selected because of that. Overpowered is overrated in its current state.

 

[Loskol]

Your suggestion is very similiar as it used to be on Java network too, and I would totally want to see leather armor and protection 4 back in Eggwars! I'm not exactly sure why Cubecraft didn't add protection 4 back to all armor in overpowered mode after the release of the newest Eggwars update. Could be something to do with the fact that they want to keep games as balanced as possible, but I think by changing the price of the armor like you said would solve this issue.

Netherite armor is diamond armor but with extra durability and knockback resistance when full set is worn (at least on Bedrock, don't remember how it works on Java).

And yeah it's same in Java.

 

[UncleSpect]

I've seen this suggestion before. I hope it will be accepted and added. It really makes the game more enjoyable.

 

[adrian525pl]

(has the same protection as netherite armor, and double the durability of iron armor). Netherite armor is diamond armor but with extra durability and knockback resistance when full set is worn.

To start off: I get your entire point, I agree diamond armor is too strong for "mid tier armor", and leather armor is defnitely not a bad Idea (though I got a, in my opinion, better one written later).

BUT That one sentence of yours, the one I quoted, is incorrect (tbf, just slightly, but still). There is a hidden stat on diamond and netherite armors called "Toughness".

This stat, while not visible ingame (on bedrock, I think on java it might be visible if you hover over the item in your inventory, not gonna double check so feel free to correct me on that) makes netherite armor stronger than diamond in terms of damage reduction on top of the things you said.

That stat makes diamond armor slightly stronger than its protection points suggest, FURTHER REINFORCING your point about it being too strong since that armor is more than just 5 extra points, because on top of those points its also a total of 8 points of armor toughness (2 per piece for diamond, 3 per piece for netherite).

And the difference it makes compared to when Toughness isn't there is massive.

With a 10 damage sword (Sharp II netherite in Overpowered mode), if it was just 20 points of armor protection, prot III (because overpowered mode) and nothing else, that defense reduction would be around 20% and the opponent would die in 10 hits. With 8 total armor toughness, that defense reduction is cut to 10%, and the opponent dies not in 10, but in 13 hits.

And just to reinforce Iron armor being too weak compared to Diamond: Prot III Iron armor can only surive 7 hits.


Diamond Armor is literally twice the strength of Iron. Meanwhile Netherite, while better than Diamond, offers only slightly more defense reduction, with Prot III netherite you can take a total of... 14 hits from a Sharp II Netherite Sword.

I know its not a massive difference, but if you take the KB reduction into account, as well as regen, that difference can be a little larger.

But even then, mathematically, diamond armor is absolutely not a balanced "mid tier" as its almost the same as netherite in terms of damage reduction and a massive improvement over iron armor.


That said, I played around with a the numbers, and I think the best option would not be an addition of leather armor and the moving of Diamond armor to be buyable only with diamonds, but rather simply reducing the protection level of diamond armor from Prot III to Prot II.

If cubecraft did that, Diamond armor against a sharp II netherite sword would last 10 hits. That makes it an upgrade over Iron armor, but one not nearly as massive as before, a difference of only 3 hits does leave some fighting chance for players in Iron AND it makes it so that fights don't last nearly as long AND it makes it more worthwhile to buy netherite armor if you can choose to.

This change would make Diamond Armor a true mid tier armor when compared to the other two, unlike now, where its almost the same strength as netherite but without the KB reduction or durability. And it would achieve all of that without all of the pain related to adding new items, changing the prices, and changing the enchantment levels of all the items just to accomodate leather being added, etc.

To further reinforce this Idea, I ran numbers for a more early-game-ish weapon, The Sharp II Iron sword (8 damage).

Prot III Iron Armor lasts 9 hits against it, Prot III Diamond lasts 18 HITS. Prot III netherite lasts 19 hits.

Prot II Diamond, if it replaced Prot III Diamond, would only last 13 hits, so once again an upgrade over Iron Armor BUT not a jump near as massive as the one before and one with enough of a gap to make netherite armor useful.

This hypothetical change, due to the prot enchantments, also creates for an interesting scenario, where Iron Armor and Diamond armor are closer to each other against stronger weapons rather than weak ones. This makes diamond armor more powerful against weak weapons but less powerful against strong ones, which in my opinion could help further reinforce it being a "mid tier" option rather than something almost as strong as end-game armor.

As an example, against Sharp V netherite, the stronger weapon in overpowered mode, Iron Armor lasts 4 hits. Prot II Diamond would last 6 hits (compared to prot III's 8 hits), and Prot III netherite lasts 9 hits.

 

[SlinkyGnu05604]

With a 10 damage sword (Sharp II netherite in Overpowered mode), if it was just 20 points of armor protection, prot III (because overpowered mode) and nothing else, that defense reduction would be around 20% and the opponent would die in 10 hits. With 8 total armor toughness, that defense reduction is cut to 10%, and the opponent dies not in 10, but in 13 hits.

Sharp 2 netherite actually does 9 damage according to testing. Sharp 5 diamond sword actually does 10 damage. (On Bedrock)

That said, I played around with the numbers, and I think the best option would not be an addition of leather armor and the moving of Diamond armor to be buyable only with diamonds, but rather simply reducing the protection level of diamond armor from Prot III to Prot II.

That is an interesting way to nerf it. It would actually make diamond armor a mid tier armor should the current armor tier system stay how it is.

 

[adrian525pl]

Sharp 2 netherite actually does 9 damage according to testing. Sharp 5 diamond sword actually does 10 damage. (On Bedrock)

What testing exactly? Also: was the testing done on a normal bedrock edition world or on cubecraft? Because those two are slightly different

EDIT: I just went into eggwars for some testing, and you seem to be correct. But it just doesn't make sense. Why does it say "14 damage" if its less than that?

 

[SlinkyGnu05604]

bump

 

[Xavi | Goofy]

The main reason that cheap leather armor wasn’t added again was due to it being used to rush basically immediately. This did not give new players a chance whatsoever to even figure out how to buy anything.
This was quite extensively discussed on discord here: https://discord.com/channels/174837853778345984/1194765894459592805

 

[SlinkyGnu05604]

The main reason that cheap leather armor wasn’t added again was due to it being used to rush basically immediately. This did not give new players a chance whatsoever to even figure out how to buy anything.
This was quite extensively discussed on discord here: https://discord.com/channels/174837853778345984/1194765894459592805

CubeCraft could rebalance the armor tiers though, protection 4 leather is similar to iron armor protection 3, just with lower durability unless CubeCraft adds unbreaking to it.
Side note: Experienced players can still rush people today before they get the chance to look at shop prices.

 

[ImLeave]

Hello CubeCrafters, I’m here with a small but game changing suggestion for OP EggWars, Leather Armor!

Before we get into the suggestion, let me provide a context for what's going on:

CubeCraft did a community talk back when "EggWars Tweaks" was in development and they asked the EggWars community on their thoughts on armor in OP mode, specifically leather armor. Unfortunately, no armor changes were made when the update released, which brings us to this suggestion. The community talk isn't even closed as of making this suggestion.

How does the addition of Leather armor change the game you may ask?

Leather armor used to be the most important aspect of the original overpowered EggWars. It was the lowest armor tier prior to season 2 and it was balanced compared to iron armor being the lowest armor tier due to its low durability, so it can be broken easily during long fights, encouraging players to have backup armor sets.

However, protection 4 was in the original EggWars and today it is protection 3. Iron armor being the lowest armor tier defeats the purpose of backup armor sets since iron armor has about 3 times more durability than leather armor, making it unlikely to break especially considering armor is protection 3 now, where you are likely to kill players before you break a piece of their armor. A small detail leather armor has that iron armor doesn’t have is that its color coded to what team the player is on, and it looks even better enchanted in my opinion.

With armor being protection 3 across the board, the time to kill in the early game is going to be much faster than it used to be. I'm curious to see how it goes should this suggestion be implemented. However, there could be a chance that all armor gets bumped to protection 4 to make leather armor give similar protection to protection 3 iron armor and to allow the possibility of breaking people's armor to happen, which is one of the biggest aspects of the original overpowered mode. If protection 4 was to return, I believe it's best to kept it exclusive to Bedrock since time to kill is so long on Java that protection 3 makes sense there in my opinion. If Java players also want protection 4, you can apply it to Java as well.

Also, this suggestion could possibly bring back scrims due to how popular leather armor is and especially with the right way of balancing the game.

How will leather armor impact armor balancing?

Leather armor being present in the game will change armor tiers to match Normal mode, with leather being the lowest tier, iron being the mid tier armor, diamond being the highest tier armor unless Netherite armor is kept into the game which makes it the end tier armor.

This armor balancing is needed especially because diamond armor is way too strong to be a mid tier armor in Overpowered (has the same protection as netherite armor and double the durability of iron armor). Netherite armor is diamond armor but with extra durability, knockback resistance when full set is worn and extra armor toughness (at least for Java), did some tests and while I can't see any damage difference, that is why I felt like netherite armored players are hard to kill.

Here are my suggested prices to balance armor:

Leather – 6 iron
Iron – 42 gold
Diamond – 64 diamonds (128 if armor is changed to protection 4)
Netherite (If kept in the game for some reason) - 128 diamonds (256 if armor is changed to protection 4)

What are your thoughts on this suggestion? Let me know in the comments.

Edit 1: Made each question clear by underlining them and added more info on armor balancing.
Edit 2: Confirmed Netherite armor knockback resistance full set bonus for Java (Thanks @Loskol!)
Edit 3: Forgot to mention armor toughness stat. This shows that I don't play Java often, even though the Bedrock server uses Java code. (Thanks @adrian525pl!)

The should not have touched EggWars, I was perfectly fine the way it was. 1000% agree. Also I agree so much with diamond armour being so incredibly cheap to where players will get it 30 seconds into the game and make it 5x as annoying to defeat (sometimes).

 

[adrian525pl]

The main reason that cheap leather armor wasn’t added again was due to it being used to rush basically immediately.

Early rushers will rush with or without armor. Its the block prices that'd need to be increased to actually slow them down. Either that, or you'd have to remove the kit that gives players pickaxes and make pickaxes more expensive. Armor is one of those things where the price has zero effect on how fast players rush.

I'd probably argue cheap and strong armor actually makes it harder for players to rush because it makes it so that everyone in the early game takes a long time to be killed.

CubeCraft could rebalance the armor tiers though, protection 4 leather is similar to iron armor protection 3, just with lower durability unless CubeCraft adds unbreaking to it.

You are, suprisingly enough (to me), 100% correct from a mathematical perspective. Prot III Iron Armor in this instance is only slightly stronger than prot IV leather, lasting "only" one or two hits more than leather, depending on the weapon. With some weapons there is actually not even a difference in the amount of hits you last (Against a sharp V diamond sword you should last the same amount of hits with both armors).

The should not have touched EggWars, I was perfectly fine the way it was. 1000% agree. Also I agree so much with diamond armour being so incredibly cheap to where players will get it 30 seconds into the game and make it 5x as annoying to defeat (sometimes).

Very mixed on that one, after all all these updates to eggwars were done for a reason, with a purpose which by now has been mentioned like 500 times all across various forum threads. And I do support and agree with them in that goal. The game needs to be more accessible to worse players, it may have been "perfectly fine" to you, but not potential new players.

BUT I do think they went about what they tried to achieve the wrong way AND that prot III Diamond is way too overpowered to be the upgrade to prot III Iron. But here I already mentioned the best solution would probably be to just reduce to Prot II Diamond, as its still an upgrade over prot III Iron, but a smaller one in comparison, allowing Iron Armor players to actually have a fighting chance.

The mistake cubecraft makes here in its design is that they assume rushers buy armor. They completely misunderstand a fast rushers mentality, which isn't to actually be prepared, its to buy blocks, maybe a pickaxe (assuming they didn't get the kit that spawns you in with one) and figure out everything else on the way.

In the "best case" scenario, the rusher might buy Iron armor if its overpowered mode before going in with the attack, but that's as far as it goes.

Now there are various ways they can stop early rushers, depending on what approach they want to choose:

• They can make blocks more expensive to force the rushers to farm resources for a bit longer before going on the attack.
• They can remove the pickaxe kit and make pickaxes more expensive to create a similar effect to the previous suggestion.
• They can redesign the maps and put the player islands further away from each other, making it take longer and more blocks to get to your opponents base
• They can redesign the maps and add more natural obstacles between islands to slow players down. One map already does it to an extent, solo eggwars greenhouse just has walls between player islands. Its simple, but very effective, as it forces quick rushers to either go mid first (which, with almost all of the current maps, they can often just "refuse" to do for the entire game, I've seen games end with the winner not even having been on mid for the entire game) or build really weird bridges around the walls. And the generators starting upgraded to level 2 only makes it easier to survive potential early rushes.
• They can remove or redesign the maps where you have 3 player Islands line up in a line next to each other instead of having some sort of "center" between them. This is only a solution for these types of maps as this specific map design heavily favors early rushing, not to mention disadvantaging some players by "sandwiching them" between two others, making them an easy target if one or both players decided to go on an early rush.
• They can make it so the egg isn't broken in one hit, instead being able to take multiple, making it easier for players to defend themselves.
• They can make the strong armors cheaper so players can have them earlier, making them harder to kill for an early rusher
• They can make eggs spawn in with a defense so that super-quick rushes are less effective.
• They can make players spawn in with certain (weak) gear to not be completely unprepared if someone decides to rush fast.

Some of these Ideas are absolutely horrible btw, I am not gonna pretend otherwise.

I am just throwing Ideas out here that might actually achieve the purpose of slowing early rushers down. Making armor more expensive, as I already said, is the one thing that makes it easier for early rushers as it allows them to grab kills before anyone reaches the stage where its hard to kill them.

That's the general Idea, early rushers can only be stopped by slowing them down some way, either in how quick they get to rush or how hard it is to kill players or by literally forcing them to wait a few seconds with that grace period.

The grace period isn't the Idea I'd personally support, but it is one of the easiest to implement AND the only one that 100% guarantees the desired effect. In my opinion, if they consider that one, then they should only do so as a last resort option if all else fails.

 

[n00batg4me]

I do miss leather armor and for the reason being it has way less durability so you would have to play safer if you are tanking at mid. This would make you more cautious of your armor. Now I feel like that is the last thing I'm worried about because it takes so long for the iron/diamond armor to break

 

[Xavi | Goofy]

Early rushers will rush with or without armor. Its the block prices that'd need to be increased to actually slow them down. Either that, or you'd have to remove the kit that gives players pickaxes and make pickaxes more expensive. Armor is one of those things where the price has zero effect on how fast players rush.

I'd probably argue cheap and strong armor actually makes it harder for players to rush because it makes it so that everyone in the early game takes a long time to be killed.

Its not that difficult to kill someone w/o armour when you have iron as compared to having someone rush with leather comboing everyone. Again I recommend reading the discord thread for more information as I'm really dumbing it down currently.

The low durability may be very true for bedrock but isn't that big of an issue for java. Just buy two sets if you know you're going to be fighting a lot.